Who will win this Paypal dispute?

Bryan Le · 04-16-06, 04:42 AM

I have recieved my first open dispute with ForumShock from PayPal. This is my first venture into the whole "disputing" system with paypal, so I am unsure how to defend myself, as, everytime I try to "resolve" it - it asks for a tracking number (I'm not even delivering a physical good).

Anyways, here's the story - and I would like to know what everyone's opinion on it is...

I recieve an order on 4/01/06 worth $87.50 for 430 posts on X forum. Immediately I send off a "Thank you for your order!" email. Please keep in mind that ALL customers must check that they understand the terms of service before they order (viewed here: www.forumshock.com/tos.php).

His topic is very difficult and very specific. However, I manage to find a couple writers to start it off. It starts off about 2 days late (4/4/06 is the first post from a ForumShock member) and a couple more posts follow suit.

There is no "minimum" time shown with ForumShock - meaning, we will finish your forum, but the amount of time (if not specified) is left up to my discretion. Because of the difficulty of the forum however, a lot of my writers do not accept the job or sign up for it - leaving the forums with about 30 posts from ForumShock within a week's time (4/11/06). I understand that this is partially our fault - as the topic is hard, and that is no excuse. I email him letting him know that I am attempting to find experts on the subject, and to "be patient".

I am out of town for the day and do not get home in time to see an email from him stating that "if I do not refund his money in full, he will file a paypal charge". Immediately I reply that this is not necessary, and we can discuss the issue. I also let him know that if he wants a full refund, he will have to adhere to the terms of services - mainly this piece (taken directly from the TOS agreement which he "accepted" before he ordered):

Quote:

If a customer would like to request for a refund, they must first DELETE all posts made by ForumShock staff. Once this is finished, a full refund will be sent to the customer. This will be done only after all the posts and threads have been deleted. Please note that any fees incurred through this process will be deducted from the amount returned.

The buyer may also be subjected to a 25% service charge (of the original purchase amount - I.E. $100.00 = $25.00 service charge) if the forum postings have already began. The buyer may also be subjected to the 25% service charge if the forum population has been continuing for longer then 7 business days.

However, I let him know that I am willing to waive the 25% service charge, and that I will gladly refund him the money if he:

1. Complies with the TOS and deletes all his posts before hand
2. Allows us another week to finish up the posts (or make a majority of them)
3. Recieve a partial refund - meaning he pays for the posts that have already been made at the FORUMSHOCK rate (not my employee rate - this translates to about $0.203 per post).

He doesn't reply for an entire day (wasting valuable time with paypal's dispute center). I send out another email asking him if he recieved the first email (his spam blocker my have blocked it). He sends a simple "Yes, I did" - with no reference to the first email.

I ask him to cancel the paypal complaint so that I can refund him partially - and that I will waive the service charge - keep in mind that this is all stated in the terms of service which he agreed to before ordering.

Also - the terms of service do not state a specific time period in which the posts will take place. There is no minimum - there is no maximum. This was intended to protect myself in cases like these - where the harder subjects require a lot more research and hiring of experts.

The customer also states that the posts were not made "in his alotted time period" - which, was not stated in the "additional details" part, or was specifically mentioned to me in any sort of email or contact. I let him know that he is violating the terms of services - he doesn't care, and still demands his full refund.

At this point - I am extremely frustrated, and now I am willing to battle it with the customer. On one side, I believe I am right because I am protected by my Terms of Service. On another hand, he was not satisfied - in which, I have "promised" him according to my site. However, in order to recieve this "satisfaction guarantee" and recieve the full refund, he must adhere to the terms of service. On top of that, in the "qualifications for refund" it states the following:

Quote:

The Customer must submit an acceptable reason for return. In regards to Forum Population returns - the Customer must point out that ForumShock.com has violated one of the following:

a. Insufficient amount of Posts and New Topics as advertised
b. Insufficient amount of new members as advertised
c. Insufficient amount of words per post
d. Posting in restricted areas (must've been made specific before the posting campaign)
e. Posting with irrelevant topic matters (unless otherwise noted by the Customer)
f. Excessive grammar mistakes, mispellings, and innappropriate posts

It says nothing about time restraints or maximums.

I have asked him several times that - all he has to do is delete the posts and adhere to the terms of service and I will gladly refund him IN FULL (minus whatever paypal wants to take of it). I am still offering him the 3 options mentioned above in order to resolve this quickly and easily.

He remains stubborn and decides that he will let "Paypal" resolve this. I am willing to go to battle with the customer because, like I said before, I believe I am protected by my Terms of Service.

But when I go to "resolve" it asks me for proof of tracking numbers, etc - as if I am ripping him off of a "physical good" - which makes it impossible for me to get anywhere with a "service" based product.

How do I go about resolving this if I can not provide a tracking number? Do I just call PayPal and discuss it with them? Who is right in this situation, and should I pursue it further? Or should I just give in quickly and give him back his money?

Any help would be great - and if you guys need any clarification, that'd be fine too.

Bryan

anne · 04-16-06, 06:23 AM

Wouldn't the person filing the dispute need to provide order numbers or something that you could use for the tracking number?

I don't think that Paypal really thought about online only transactions, but its early here and I can't face trawling through the t&cs before my first coffee of the day.

It sounds to me like you're covered with your T&Cs. I would call paypal and see what they say.

**Baby Boy** · 04-16-06, 07:54 AM

I reached deep into my little "help" bag (also known as my junked up EMail to find a dispute that I had with somebody in the past... contact them and bring this up:

Quote:

PayPal was unable to resolve the dispute since the item purchased was
virtual or intangible. PayPals'consumer protection policies apply only
to payments for tangible, physical goods which can be shipped, and excludes
all other payments, including but not limited to, payments for intangibles,
for services or for licenses and other access to digital content.

-- from PayPal EMail

That should atleast keep from the guy getting his money back fast. After-all, the item in a way is NOT tangible or physical. Good luck

Bryan Le · 04-16-06, 12:35 PM

What happens if/when I lose?

**Baby Boy** · 04-16-06, 12:38 PM

No way you could really lose, because PayPal stated that it is a virtual item, therefore it isn't physical or tangible... THEREFORE, meaning that the person that created a dispute against you can actually get a REFUND... in short, he can't get a refund and if you tell PayPal, they'll most likely close the dispute and let you 2 handle it amongst yourselves. Try it

anne · 04-16-06, 03:49 PM

Nice

Well, in this case.

Kinda worrying for consumers though - theres so much virtual trade going on now I think they should consider changing that rule.

iTechSmart · 04-16-06, 08:20 PM

It is true Bryan that you have the upper hand in this dispute as Paypal is severally flawed and people who knows how can take quite an advantage of paypal.

Anyway if you can put in the tracking code intangible and explain that you sell a digital service over the web and that the customer has read, signed up and disagreed with your terms of service and you should be well protected.

Of course there is always a small chance that you may lose the dispute no doubt but if thats the case, then I would get all your writers to stop immediately (even now you should have them stop as soon as a dispute comes up) and let it go as there isn't much you can do about it.

Another more evil option which you really shouldn't consider but I'll list it anyway is if you win the paypal dispute, keep the money and don't do the work.

No that really isn't an option.

Shane

**Baby Boy** · 04-16-06, 11:46 PM

Well if you think in short-terms of the rule, I honestly think that the rule should be changed to if the virtual order was over $50+ because then its a good sum of money and logical payment excuse so yeah.

Super Mod · 04-17-06, 04:42 PM

I can tell you right now without even needing to read the entire thread that you're going to lose the dispute as long as you did not provide a tangible product. It's crap and I've written about it before (see: PayPal Analysis), but there is no way to win no matter what you provide them. I get "chargebacks" now and then via PayPal, but have never one a single one. I'm sorry to hear that you got one, but there's really nothing you can do.

iTechSmart · 04-17-06, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer

I can tell you right now without even needing to read the entire thread that you're going to lose the dispute as long as you did not provide a tangible product. It's crap and I've written about it before (see: PayPal Analysis), but there is no way to win no matter what you provide them. I get "chargebacks" now and then via PayPal, but have never one a single one. I'm sorry to hear that you got one, but there's really nothing you can do.

I at one stage paid very good money for a bunch of scripts and a 24/7 fast support and the scripts were all buggy, the owner put them on a license then she decided to change them and screwed them all up and never recieved a reply from her except when I disputed it with paypal.

Guess who won? She did because the good were intanglable so I was stuck a very poor service and had to spend more money on geting them fixed, but that's another story.

I'll admit that there is a chance he will lose but it won't be 100% sure he will lose.

Shane